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	<title>Comments on: Infinite Attic</title>
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	<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/</link>
	<description>All tools. All the time.  Your source for news, information, and reviews of hand tools, power tools, and tools of all kinds.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Zathrus</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1019620</link>
		<dc:creator>Zathrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1019620</guid>
		<description>You can insulate the rafters, but it's not nearly as cheap, easy, or as effective. You cannot use blow in at all (except in that 1" left to you on the floor below this crap). You have to either staple faced batts (if allowed by fire code) all over the place, or put unfaced batts with wire hangers in all over. And even then you simply cannot put as much on -- 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" of insulation is inadequate anywhere (unless you use spray foam, which is expensive).

Finally, you haven't stopped conditioned air from leaking into your attic -- so you're still partially heating and cooling your attic, which is what the insulation is supposed to stop in the first place. This can lead to all kinds of moisture issues in both humid and cold climates, particularly since you now have to remove as much air circulation from the attic as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can insulate the rafters, but it&#8217;s not nearly as cheap, easy, or as effective. You cannot use blow in at all (except in that 1&#8243; left to you on the floor below this crap). You have to either staple faced batts (if allowed by fire code) all over the place, or put unfaced batts with wire hangers in all over. And even then you simply cannot put as much on &#8212; 3 1/2&#8243; or 5 1/4&#8243; of insulation is inadequate anywhere (unless you use spray foam, which is expensive).</p>
<p>Finally, you haven&#8217;t stopped conditioned air from leaking into your attic &#8212; so you&#8217;re still partially heating and cooling your attic, which is what the insulation is supposed to stop in the first place. This can lead to all kinds of moisture issues in both humid and cold climates, particularly since you now have to remove as much air circulation from the attic as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: DDT</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1019573</link>
		<dc:creator>DDT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1019573</guid>
		<description>Why can't you insulate the rafters?

The problem with 2x2s or 1x whatevers as someone else mentioned is the strength. If you're storing a lot of stuff up in your attic, and the only thing carrying the load is two 2x2s, and your plywood isn't supported on all sides, it can be a problem, especially if it's subjected to a lot of moisture and humidity (osb is even worse compared to plywood as it crumbles). I've worked in homes where people put 2x2s as backing to the joist for ductwork, or plumbing and you can put nails and screws galore, but it's useless when your foot can push it off with ease. 2x2s and 1x whatevers are meant for strapping. If you're going to use anything, use 2x3s. Square lumber such as 2x2s, and 4x4s aren't as strong as 2x3s and 5x3s.

Although at one time basements weren't anything except for utilities and perhaps a cold storage room, it's certainly changed, but attics I don't think will ever change because too many problems can occur. Here's a better idea; condense your stuff and sell it or give it away. If it's in the attic for more than 6 months, get over it and rid of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why can&#8217;t you insulate the rafters?</p>
<p>The problem with 2&#215;2s or 1x whatevers as someone else mentioned is the strength. If you&#8217;re storing a lot of stuff up in your attic, and the only thing carrying the load is two 2&#215;2s, and your plywood isn&#8217;t supported on all sides, it can be a problem, especially if it&#8217;s subjected to a lot of moisture and humidity (osb is even worse compared to plywood as it crumbles). I&#8217;ve worked in homes where people put 2&#215;2s as backing to the joist for ductwork, or plumbing and you can put nails and screws galore, but it&#8217;s useless when your foot can push it off with ease. 2&#215;2s and 1x whatevers are meant for strapping. If you&#8217;re going to use anything, use 2&#215;3s. Square lumber such as 2&#215;2s, and 4&#215;4s aren&#8217;t as strong as 2&#215;3s and 5&#215;3s.</p>
<p>Although at one time basements weren&#8217;t anything except for utilities and perhaps a cold storage room, it&#8217;s certainly changed, but attics I don&#8217;t think will ever change because too many problems can occur. Here&#8217;s a better idea; condense your stuff and sell it or give it away. If it&#8217;s in the attic for more than 6 months, get over it and rid of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Zathrus</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018939</link>
		<dc:creator>Zathrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018939</guid>
		<description>Utterly and completely useless since there's no place for insulation.

Personally, I've partially decked my attic (for storage) -- ran 2x4's perpendicular to the existing 2x6's. Filled those with blow-in, put OSB on top. The rest of the attic is getting R-45 worth of batts, or at least R-30 plus a ton of blow-in (all the blow in is recycled from the stuff that's currently up there).

As for the squirrel evictor -- man, I know I wouldn't want to go up there with that running. But it only works in attics that are square and have no "blind spots"... which eliminates every attic I've ever been in. Even for condos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Utterly and completely useless since there&#8217;s no place for insulation.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;ve partially decked my attic (for storage) &#8212; ran 2&#215;4&#8217;s perpendicular to the existing 2&#215;6&#8217;s. Filled those with blow-in, put OSB on top. The rest of the attic is getting R-45 worth of batts, or at least R-30 plus a ton of blow-in (all the blow in is recycled from the stuff that&#8217;s currently up there).</p>
<p>As for the squirrel evictor &#8212; man, I know I wouldn&#8217;t want to go up there with that running. But it only works in attics that are square and have no &#8220;blind spots&#8221;&#8230; which eliminates every attic I&#8217;ve ever been in. Even for condos.</p>
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		<title>By: Toolhearty</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018631</link>
		<dc:creator>Toolhearty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018631</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To me the attic is a place for (lots of) insulation, and maybe a Squirrel Evictor.&lt;/i&gt;

I can see it now...  If I tried one of those Squirrel Evictor thingies, the darn squirrels would find a boom box and a mirrored ball from somewhere and have a rodent disco going on in the attic.   :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>To me the attic is a place for (lots of) insulation, and maybe a Squirrel Evictor.</i></p>
<p>I can see it now&#8230;  If I tried one of those Squirrel Evictor thingies, the darn squirrels would find a boom box and a mirrored ball from somewhere and have a rodent disco going on in the attic.   <img src='http://toolmonger.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: John Seiffer at http://www.BetterCEO.com</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018625</link>
		<dc:creator>John Seiffer at http://www.BetterCEO.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018625</guid>
		<description>So much stuff like this is a solution looking for a problem. The cost of marketing and convincing folks to buy it inflates the price so much that anyone who has time and just a wee bit of skill can figure out a cheaper way to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So much stuff like this is a solution looking for a problem. The cost of marketing and convincing folks to buy it inflates the price so much that anyone who has time and just a wee bit of skill can figure out a cheaper way to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: shopmonger</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018535</link>
		<dc:creator>shopmonger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 02:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018535</guid>
		<description>Yeah for the price,  the other attic florrinf seemed more reasonable,  or just do some easy carpentry and build your on out of some  2x material   or 1x and make cleats

ShopMonger</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah for the price,  the other attic florrinf seemed more reasonable,  or just do some easy carpentry and build your on out of some  2x material   or 1x and make cleats</p>
<p>ShopMonger</p>
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		<title>By: Toolaremia</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018488</link>
		<dc:creator>Toolaremia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018488</guid>
		<description>The problem as I see it with all these attic storage "solutions" is you can't effectively use them anywhere where it gets decently cold (insulation), and anywhere you don't need that much insulation is probably where heat and humidity will damage or destroy anything you store in the attic.  

To me the attic is a place for (lots of) insulation, and maybe a &lt;a href="http://www.evictorproducts.com/mb10K.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Squirrel Evictor&lt;/a&gt;. (I don't sell that or work for them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem as I see it with all these attic storage &#8220;solutions&#8221; is you can&#8217;t effectively use them anywhere where it gets decently cold (insulation), and anywhere you don&#8217;t need that much insulation is probably where heat and humidity will damage or destroy anything you store in the attic.  </p>
<p>To me the attic is a place for (lots of) insulation, and maybe a <a href="http://www.evictorproducts.com/mb10K.html" rel="nofollow">Squirrel Evictor</a>. (I don&#8217;t sell that or work for them.)</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018474</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018474</guid>
		<description>why bother with the 2x2's at all, just lay the OSB the other direction and nail it to the top of the beams, that way you only need a saw and some osb. Heck, if you lay it right and butt it up against stuff nails might not even be necessary</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why bother with the 2&#215;2&#8217;s at all, just lay the OSB the other direction and nail it to the top of the beams, that way you only need a saw and some osb. Heck, if you lay it right and butt it up against stuff nails might not even be necessary</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018395</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018395</guid>
		<description>Kyle and Toolhearty:

Probably just a convenience thing. You are absolutely right about the strength issue. The load is not all on the nails or screws that are in shear - but actually a lot of the strength comes from the friction between the mating surfaces (board to board). The clips do offer convenience in that they position the 2x2's - otherwise you might use 2x3's - but would need to temporarily hold them in place while they were being screwed to the truss member.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle and Toolhearty:</p>
<p>Probably just a convenience thing. You are absolutely right about the strength issue. The load is not all on the nails or screws that are in shear - but actually a lot of the strength comes from the friction between the mating surfaces (board to board). The clips do offer convenience in that they position the 2&#215;2&#8217;s - otherwise you might use 2&#215;3&#8217;s - but would need to temporarily hold them in place while they were being screwed to the truss member.</p>
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		<title>By: Toolhearty</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018351</link>
		<dc:creator>Toolhearty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 20:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018351</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I guess I'm just dense, but I'm not getting it.  Like Kyle, I can't see any advantage over just nailing/screwing the 2x2s into the trusses.  If sheer strength per fastener is a problem, use more fasteners.  If the 2x2s are installed 3/4" below the top of the truss, there's no more or less cutting for vertical members than when using these devices.

&lt;i&gt;*shrugs*&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I guess I&#8217;m just dense, but I&#8217;m not getting it.  Like Kyle, I can&#8217;t see any advantage over just nailing/screwing the 2&#215;2s into the trusses.  If sheer strength per fastener is a problem, use more fasteners.  If the 2&#215;2s are installed 3/4&#8243; below the top of the truss, there&#8217;s no more or less cutting for vertical members than when using these devices.</p>
<p><i>*shrugs*</i></p>
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		<title>By: Alex M.</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018331</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018331</guid>
		<description>That's a really good point - I have 2x4 trusses and some decking up there that I've installed.  I'm about to have about 20" of insulation blown in to satisfy the new "energy audit" program that Austin TX has put in place.  I guess you can blow in right on top of your decking, but what if you want useable decking and insulation?  Time to make some stilt saddles...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a really good point - I have 2&#215;4 trusses and some decking up there that I&#8217;ve installed.  I&#8217;m about to have about 20&#8243; of insulation blown in to satisfy the new &#8220;energy audit&#8221; program that Austin TX has put in place.  I guess you can blow in right on top of your decking, but what if you want useable decking and insulation?  Time to make some stilt saddles&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gene</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018322</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018322</guid>
		<description>What about insulation? I guess this assumes you'll be insulating the roof and making the attic part of the living space instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about insulation? I guess this assumes you&#8217;ll be insulating the roof and making the attic part of the living space instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018321</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018321</guid>
		<description>$30 for one sheet of plywood (32 sq. ft.)?!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$30 for one sheet of plywood (32 sq. ft.)?!!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018317</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018317</guid>
		<description>This way you can have a flat surface without cutting around all the vertical supports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This way you can have a flat surface without cutting around all the vertical supports.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon DeWitte</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018315</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon DeWitte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018315</guid>
		<description>@ Kyle

My guess is that the saddles have greater shear strength than nails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Kyle</p>
<p>My guess is that the saddles have greater shear strength than nails.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://toolmonger.com/2009/08/17/infinite-attic/#comment-1018314</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toolmonger.com/?p=29711#comment-1018314</guid>
		<description>I don't get it, why wouldn't you just nail the 2x2s directly to the trusses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t get it, why wouldn&#8217;t you just nail the 2&#215;2s directly to the trusses?</p>
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