Hot or Not? SawStop’s “Safe” Table Saw
By Chuck Cage
There’s no doubting SawStop’s technology and its ability to keep your fingers attached to your hands — especially after watching the “hot dog demo” video — but a big question remains: would you shell out the cash to own one? And if you did, are you pleased with the quality of the saw besides the brake?
We’ve seen lots of words about the SawStop — both good and bad — but we wanted to put it before our most trusted group: Toolmongers. Have some experience with one — or opinions on the price/quality balance? Let us know in comments.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:15 am
I’ve heard the quality on the saw is pretty good. If I were setting up a shop where multiple people would be using the saw, I’d definitely get one of these. Just for me, it seems a little pricey but I figure the first time it saves a finger or the like, it’s paid for itself.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:32 am
It’s always irked me that the SawStop guys couldn’t (or wouldn’t) negotiate to make this technology more widely available. It’s something that ought to be on every table saw out there. If Congress can legislate safety equipment for cars they could certainly do it for table saws.
“Woodworking equipment produces approximately 720,000 injuries per year often causing severe psychologic and functional impairment. Responses from 1000 injured woodworkers to a demographic survey revealed that 60.5% of injuries occurred to amateur woodworkers; 42% of injuries were caused by the table saw and 37% of respondents reported amputation of one or more digits.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3498745&dopt=Abstract
June 12th, 2007 at 11:39 am
I understand it’s a top notch high quality saw, but the guy that makes it is a jerk (he tried to get legislation passed to force his safety device onto sawmakers when they wouldn’t buy his overpriced technology). It’s also an expensive machine to make a mistake on as a false trigger of the device (damp wood, etc) will require you to replace both the blade and the sawstop mechanism at high cost. Also, kickback is a far bigger danger on table saws than cutting off your finger and the saw doesn’t do anything special to avoid that.
I’d say NOT hot. You shouldnt be doing anything on a table saw that even remotely puts your fingers near the blade anyway. Plus there doesnt seem to be any admission that the capacitance trigger might actually fail — which it might easily do if you are wearing rubber soled boots and not touching anything grounded.
This might be a good investment for a high school shop class where you could reasonably expect carelessness, but it doesn’t have much use in a professional shop unless you can get it to lower your insurance or something.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:53 am
It is HOT!
The reason it is not on other people’s saws is they didn’t want to license it because it would admit that their other saws are dangerous, and would make them liable.
If I had the money I would get one. And might when they come out with the contractor’s model.
June 12th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Not. I’ve ‘kicked the tires’ on one of these at the local woodcraft store. Build quality looks good, and on par with the Powermatic. The problem I have with it is the cost of replacement of the brake assembly. I know, what’s a couple hundred dollars compared to the loss of a finger or worse. But the saw hasn’t been around long enough to have a track record of not having false positives. Until that time, the cost seems a bit high. And the attempt to have this tech legislated into all saws bugs me. If it’s good tech, works and fills a need in the market, the manufactures will license it due to market forces. Trying to make a buck by having it legislated into use when it doesn’t have a solid track record of use in the field seems wrong.
June 12th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Wood magazine did a pretty thorough review on the saw, including testing for “a false trigger of the device (damp wood, etc)” and could not make it trigger on anything but flesh, hotdog or finger.
http://woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop_highspeed.xml
I agree that you shouldn’t have your fingers anywhere near the blade, but If I had a full production shop, I would have one.
Sawstop safety: HOT
Sawstop price: NOT
June 12th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
If congress did mandate the technology, they might invalidate the patent or establish compulsory licensing based on the “overwhelming public interest” doctrine — if it’s important enough to mandate, maybe it’s important enough to override traditional patent law. This is invoked sometimes for pharmaceuticals in an epidemic (see Brazil’s Kaletra move) or war materiel. It’s also why things like seatbelts aren’t patentable in the first place, supposedly.
I’m not a lawyer, patent or otherwise, but I’ve read that such things are possible. I think it’d be sweet irony if SawStop’s claims of public health and safety were validated at the same time their patent was eviscerated. Food for thought, anyway.
As for the SawStop’s behavior on damp wood, am I crazy in thinking that a “hey, I almost tripped on that!” beeper or indicator would help woodworkers realize that their workpiece is damper than normal and should perhaps be let to dry a while longer? Obviously if the resistance is low enough to fire the mechanism, it should do so, but in marginal cases it would be helpful to have some feedback and a chance to reconsider before destroying a blade and cartridge. Just my two cents’ worth.
June 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Probably hot, but I think it needs some more time in the field. And if I could afford a saw like that, I could probably afford the replacement cartridge and blade (as long as it only happened once in a great while).
June 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
People often comment harshly on the inventor’s attempts to pass legislation requiring the use of this technology. Some say that market forces would drive the adoption by the major manufacturers and that should be good enough. But the truth is the manufacturers won’t touch it for any amount of licensing loot. The reasons are many and some have been mentioned, but mainly you are including a feature which if it fails is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen.
It’s a shame really - the man has invented a technology that even it it does fail, the failures will certainly be lower in number than the amount of people who harm themselves yearly from tablesaw misuse. I’m glad he came to market with his own saw, and although I have not used it, if I was in the market I would certainly buy this machine over any other. I like my fingers right where they are.
June 12th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
SawStop is HOT by far…
True, the brake mechanism is expensive to replace. But has anyone actually HEARD about a false positive or is that just a fear based in speculation?
You should think of the braking mechanism like a car airbag (which, if I’m not mistaken, are also very expensive to replace). It’s a safety measure that you hope you will never have to use, but if you do, you’ll be seriously glad you have it.
Really, what it comes down to is this: if you don’t buy this saw and the day comes where you do slip up and come in contact with the spinning blade, you’re going to probably regret not having purchased this saw for the rest of your life.
June 12th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Not Hot.
I’d rather not pay the extra money for the saw. I think it’s a decent saw, but not for the cost. When I build my new shop I will be buying a new table saw, just not a SawStop.
Part of my reasoning is the fact that I don’t need the safety feature. It would be a waste of my money. I am very careful around my saw (I do it for a living). I know better than to let my finger get that close to the blade.
The other part is the inventor. He is a jerk IMO. I’ve read several articles where he comes across as a stereotypical lawyer (doesn’t help that he is one). The fact that he tried to ram through the legislation before he tried to manufacture the saw himself after he was rebuffed is enough of a character statement for me.
Not everybody needs or wants this technology. If it truly is the “Best Thing Going” it will prove itself in the marketplace. Trying to ram it down everybody’s throat is a little arrogant.
The number of people injured by sawblades each year is much smaller than people injured by kickbacks. Forcing consumers to buy “safety” features they don’t want or need would be poor legislation. The very people most likely to be injured while using a tablesaw will still be under risk from kickbacks.
Tablesaws can never truly be safe, nor should we try to make them appear so. They are dangerous and should be approached with caution. Casual use by uneducated users is about as safe as giving guns to three year olds or letting blind people prone to seizures fly jets.
June 12th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Not that I have strong feelings about this
June 12th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
> Wood magazine … could not make it trigger on anything but flesh, hotdog or finger
Except, once again, they didn’t actually try it with a finger. Nobody who reviews one of these things ever has the stones to actually try sticking their hand in it
.
Not that I think it wouldn’t WORK, then - I’d just like to see someone, even from the manufacturing company, who has enough faith in the system to test it COMPLETELY.
(I think the ball of one’s thumb would be a good hand-part to try it with; that way you wouldn’t get a nicked bone. Use of a MythBusters-Approved Pig Part would also, I suppose, be acceptable.)
June 12th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Based upon the above threads:
- Has anybody documented a false positive? This concern is similar to the airbag test video that showed in an airbag going off while being driven on the test track during the early product development phase and the driver losing control. This was used repeatedly to delay the industry adoption and cast a cloud of uncertainty of the design. If an option, I would not buy a new car without an airbag installed.
- Has anybody documented a serious flesh injury on a Sawstop saw? No need to find a subject to ‘test’ it on, just let time be your test. Did they put unbelted people into cars and crash them into objects to test airbags effectiveness?
- With the cost of a tablesaw related insurance claims, the cost can be justified with reduced insurance rates. Of course this is of concern only for the business owner, which this saw’s price point and features are targeted to.
June 12th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Lots of actual info here: http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm
The bottom line, it works, it works well, it’s expensive, it’s worth it.
June 12th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
John Laur: The Sawstop has a riving knife, which is one of the best anti-kickback features you can get on a table saw.
June 12th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
It’s easy to pick on the guy who had an AMAZING invention and tried to market it, but you’ve got to feel for the guy getting blackballed by an entire industry. Clearly this is one of the best things to come along for shop safety in a long time. I personally hope that he is able to develop an aftermarket kit for big-name saws. I bet manufacturers would license it if could consumers started converting their own saws.
June 12th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
how about a sign that says “DO NOT TOUCH BLADE”
my kids are respectfully afraid of the table saw. I need a device for a band saw or a power miter box.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
I have done some reading on this saw. I even saw a weiner demo. I value the opinions given today.
However, it seems for the money they ask for, one should determine first if the unit is a good unit, or a mediocre unit. (Since I have never split a board with one, I don’t know if the quality is there.) I would want to compare it’s performance with the top Powermatic or some good european saws before I shelled out that much bread. If the saw checked out, and I was in the market for a big saw, then the brake technology would be tasty topping for a quality cake.
On lawsuits, with all the promo, if the brake failed and you lost a couple of digits as you can with any other saw when you don’t pay attention,(but unlike other saws on the market where no recovery can be had) the monetary recovery would allow you to buy a bionic hand for your woodworking, should you so choose.
I agree with the men who say time will be the true tester. Of course, if the price of the “announced” and coming contractor’s saw is decent, I would look at it with the same analysis, but more personal interest.
June 13th, 2007 at 2:16 am
I know that my brother ( a highschool shop teacher) would love to have these because he spends most of his time keeping a keen eye on careless teens. However, the brake replacement is an issue because kids would naturally test it for fun thereby costing the already stressed school budget some dearly needed money.
As for lawsuits, I can foresee a school being sued after a child loses a finger simply because they did NOT have one of these saws.
Lastly, I believe people need to have a deep respect for tools and not rely on complicated safety mechanisms that can ultimately fail; therefore I would suggest the users should not be told the safety devices are on any machine they might use.
June 13th, 2007 at 7:02 am
Sad to say but last weekend my friends’ son cut off half of his hand, yep 4 fingers + a good chunk of his thumb while working on a stage cutting 2″ FOAM of all sake. I was told that the foam got stuck and than suddenly jerked forward where his hand was thrown on the blade!
Well, it shows that no matter professional or amateur school grads, this would be a very wise investment. Though I agree with most of the people here that the little money should be made on this invention but rather serve the safety of the people. At the same time, there has to be a way to re-engage the safety after it goes off.
There are some serious manufactures out there that must have the R&D to make this happen.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:07 am
This saw interests me and I’ve been reading the comments. And I see some ‘hots’ and some ‘nots’ but what I haven’t seen is an actual /OWNER/ of the saw. Tech aside, how is this as a table saw? Does anyone have any first-hand experience?
June 18th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Hot. I haven’t used one, but I have fiddled with the floor model at my local woodworker’s supply, and it is a solid machine. I don’t have enough space or money for a big cabinet saw right now, but I am anxiously awaiting pricing information on the contractor model. I’ll be reading Toolmonger for the scoop!
July 4th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I think the inventor should be able to make as much money as he wants to. If someone else wants to make something that serves the same purpose and then give it away, more power to them.
I also don’t think it should be required on all table saws. I know many people, myself included, that bought saws costing under $200 because that was what we could afford. I suspect having this on a saw would put it out of price reach for me and a lot of other floks.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
I’m currently a Cabinetmaking and Furniture Technician student at Algonquin College. Personally, the table saw is the machine I am most apprehensive of. There’s something unsettling about a 10″ blade with sharp jagged teeth spinning angrily towards you while you slide your hand towards it
I heard about SawStop at the beginning of the year, and was impressed by the hotdog demo and testimonials. The safety feature is well-designed, and I have yet to hear of a confirmed failure (you can bet the unlucky customer’s maimed digits would be all over the news).
The riving knife is a great feature, which greatly minimizes kickback. I’ve ripped casehardened mahogany which would have kicked back something fierce — thankfully, it gripped the knife instead of the blade. The stock was warped so badly, I ended up with matching canes…
The false positives have been reduced thanks to the newer feature which allows the operator to test the moisture content of the wood. If the lights indicate that the wood is too green, you can leave the brake off while the cuts are made. Also, Sawstop will replace accidentally tripped brake cartridges for free (the spent cartridge contains data regarding the incident which they can use for further improvements). Of course, you’ll still have to replace your blade.
Every review I’ve read of the SawStop has given it top marks for quality of construction and ease of use. Even without the remarkable braking mechanism, the SawStop is a well-designed tablesaw, worthy of the higher price tag. WITH the brake, the SawStop is a bargain.
My college’s Perth Heritage campus has 3 of these fine table saws, and the main Woodroofe campus just ordered their first one earlier this week. There is some concern that students will be less vigilant about safety when using the SawStop, however I’m sure the same argument was raised when Air Bags were first introduced. I certainly don’t drive more carelessly as a result. Safety features like the SawStop and Air Bags provide peace of mind should an accident occur — the main goal is still the *prevention* of accidents.
In the end, my fingers are worth more to me, my family and my future than the $2200 CAD price difference between a fully loaded SawStop and a Delta Unisaw w/ Biesemeyer fence (which we currently use in the shop). I only wish the SawStop was a decade older so I could find a used one on kijiji.
- 10″ 3 HP cabinet SawStop, sliding fence, extension table, regular and dado brakes, delivery (Laval to Ottawa) & 14% tax = $5141 CAD
Definitely HOT!
August 30th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
MEH. Kick back can drive a piece of pine into your gut and kill you. I’ve got a $150 cast iron top craftsman that does the job. $5 grand is a lot of cash to drop on what I’d consider a gimmick.
Of course now that I said that I’ll cut my hand off tomorrow. Knock on…. formica.. mdf.. damn, theres no wood around here. what kind of place is this?
October 20th, 2007 at 10:22 am
I notice alot of comments about the inventor’s attempt to cram this technology down our throats. Consider the following technologies that have (thankfully) also been forced upon us without our input and at great financial cost:
in automobiles: seatbelts, airbags, shatterproof glass, antilock brakes, windshield wipers
on roads: yellow lines, reflective signs, rails on bridges
in your homes: fireproof materials, toilets, breakerboxes
in medicine: vaccines, sterile surgical equipment, quality controlled medications
in lawn equipment: blade guards, automatic shutoff if you fall off your mower
in the airline industry: luggage xray, metal detectors, flight control towers
in food: tamper proof packaging, FDA meat inspection
Surely you nayesayers get the message. Good technology is expensive and if it is good enough, it gets put in place regardless. If you can’t afford this saw, don’t buy it. But don’t let your your opinions about the man that invented it and his entrepeneurial motives sway someone who might need all 10 of their fingers. Woodworking is the greatest hobby in the world. If it can be made safer, and if that safety can let us hobbyists keep making a living for our family, why criticize?
February 18th, 2008 at 9:55 am
SawStop owner here.
About me:
I am a professional woodworker and I run my own shop. I have used a table saw just about every day for almost 20 years. I have employees that use the table saw every day. I witnessed a friend cut most of the way through three fingers several years ago. I witnessed the recovery, all the surgeries, the final monetary cost and the final physical cost.
Using SawStop:
The saw is better than any Powermatic or Unisaw that I have ever used. Build quality is top notch. The makers started from scratch in just about every respect, and it shows.
My employee triggered the brake for the first time within a few days of getting the saw. He was cutting aluminum laminate and forgot to engage the bypass. In the year that followed the saw has been triggered four more times: once by a stray tape measure touching a coasting blade, once by an embedded nail, once by a wet piece of cedar (fresh from the lumber yard) and most recently by a finger. The finger required a band-aid only.
Typical cost of a fired cartridge: $70 plus blade ($50-$80). SawStop replaced the flesh saving cartridge for free. The blade can be extracted from the brake, but it should not be considered safe to use again. The brazing on the teeth that contacted the brake will be weak.
I have absolutely no regrets about buying this saw. I would have nothing else in my shop.
About the company: I have spoken to these folks many times. They are passionate people who are on a mission. I know the fellow who started this whole process made much better money and worked fewer hours in his law practice. The powertool industry has case law on its’ side, so they have no need for this invention. The industry as a whole opposes this device for purely financial reasons, just like the auto industry fought seat belts. The majority of folks who are injured on table saws are employees, not saw owners, so I cannot fault the SawStop folks for presenting this technology to the CPSC and OSHA for consideration. Now that this is on the market, case law will come to favor those injured by new saws that do not have this device. That is as it should be.
My cost:
SawStop, delivered, without a fence: $4000
Sold old Unisaw, minus fence: -$650
Accidental cartridge firings: (4) @ $120= $480
One finger save: PRICELESS - or easily more than $3830
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:21 am
I’d buy one (or any quality tablesaw with a stop) if the price were within reason. Most of us cannot spend $3000 just for the table saw.
It’s ironic that Scott’s post mentions vaccines as he suggests the inventor should be able to make as much money as possible. I guess he doesn’t know that Jonas Salk (inventor of the polio vaccine) gave away his vaccine Salk said “Who owns my polio vaccine? The people! Could you patent the sun?…”
Now, I know the inventor of sawstop is a lawyer, not everyone can be a Jonas Salk, BUT…does the guy have to gouge everyone? Does the added cost really justify the retail price tag? Initially when he still thought every manufacturer might use his sawstop he said that the added cost could come down to around $100 per unit with mass production. What happened?
February 27th, 2008 at 6:49 am
I have worked with one of these saws for the better part of a year and have no complaints. In fact with a tune up and a sharp blade it is one of the smoother saws I’ve used. Highly recommended.
February 29th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
I have 2 and they are made of really high quality material, and they run really smoothly.
May 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I have owned the Saw stop cabinet saw for about a month now and have to say that it is the finest table saw that I have personally ever used. I am a retired shop teacher and furniture builder and when replacing my old contractor saw set certain criteria. the determining one where; the need for a riving knife, good dust pickup and quality construction. The riving knife limited me to the Powermatic 2000 or the Sawstop, or a european saw. I spent some time comparing the powermatic with the sawstop and came away feeling that the sawstop was a distinct cut above in design and quality. Little things like the superior integration of the dust pickup, the ease and smoothness of changing between the guard (which is the best I have ever seen–and I actually use for the first time in my life) and the riving knife, and the smoothness of the blade height and tilt controls sold me on the machine. The blade brake was a great extra on a superior saw.
Having used the saw now I can add that the On/Off switch that is so easy to operate with the thigh of your left leg is a great feature and the fence (once I spent time shimming it perfectly flat) is fantastic and accurate across its entire range. An old friend told me a long time ago that if you spend a little extra for something you really want you will soon forget it and always enjoy your purchase, but if you compromise you will constantly be thinking “why didn’t I get the one I really wanted?” The Sawstop is worth the extra, even if the blade brake is just a nice extra to have in case.