Comments on: Hands-On: LOX Screws http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/ All tools. All the time. Your source for news, information, and reviews of hand tools, power tools, and tools of all kinds. Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:25:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: _Jon http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-733165 _Jon Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:49:32 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-733165 I've used a combo-phillips / square head from Home Depot on some decks and tables recently. The box came with a blue bit. Very nice. In a pinch, I used a phillips bit to remove some screws to get a panel open. I’ve used a combo-phillips / square head from Home Depot on some decks and tables recently. The box came with a blue bit. Very nice. In a pinch, I used a phillips bit to remove some screws to get a panel open.

]]> By: Toolmonger » Blog Archive » From Spline To Wright Spline http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-673557 Toolmonger » Blog Archive » From Spline To Wright Spline Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:19:51 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-673557 [...] LOX screws are so strip-proof, you’d practically have to take a drill bit to ‘em to ruin ‘em.  The same goes for spline bolts — good luck stripping them — plus many spline wrenches are “backwards compatible” with hex, twelve-point, female Torx, and square-heads, and they’re more effective at turning 50% rounded fasteners.  Now the Wright Spline takes another step. [...] [...] LOX screws are so strip-proof, you’d practically have to take a drill bit to ‘em to ruin ‘em.  The same goes for spline bolts — good luck stripping them — plus many spline wrenches are “backwards compatible” with hex, twelve-point, female Torx, and square-heads, and they’re more effective at turning 50% rounded fasteners.  Now the Wright Spline takes another step. [...]

]]> By: Toolmonger » Blog Archive » Back In The Day: A Year Ago This Week On Toolmonger http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-110984 Toolmonger » Blog Archive » Back In The Day: A Year Ago This Week On Toolmonger Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:21:04 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-110984 [...] LOX screws — the ones with the funky drive recess — really do work, as we proved last year.  We drove and pulled one of these literally ’till we got tired of doing it — we had to wear welding gloves to hold the screw — with almost no visible cam-out. [...] [...] LOX screws — the ones with the funky drive recess — really do work, as we proved last year.  We drove and pulled one of these literally ’till we got tired of doing it — we had to wear welding gloves to hold the screw — with almost no visible cam-out. [...]

]]> By: Jay http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-4981 Jay Mon, 27 Nov 2006 06:51:42 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-4981 I wonder if the Phillips and Lox screws in the demo were verified to be identical in all respects other than the shape of the driving recess. Granted that there are advantages to the geometry of the Lox, but the screws photographed seem to be of different alloys and thread patterns. A made-in-China mild steel zinc-plated Phillips against a grade-8 Lox is hardly a fair test. What about the clutch-head? That seems to have merit as well. I wonder if the Phillips and Lox screws in the demo were verified to be identical in all respects other than the shape of the driving recess. Granted that there are advantages to the geometry of the Lox, but the screws photographed seem to be of different alloys and thread patterns. A made-in-China mild steel zinc-plated Phillips against a grade-8 Lox is hardly a fair test.

What about the clutch-head? That seems to have merit as well.

]]> By: Toolmonger » Blog Archive » The Week’s Best Comments: Bustin’ on Toolmonger - all tools, all the time. http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-929 Toolmonger » Blog Archive » The Week’s Best Comments: Bustin’ on Toolmonger - all tools, all the time. Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:45:38 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-929 [...] Plus, the debate continues regarding the need for a new screw head. [...] [...] Plus, the debate continues regarding the need for a new screw head. [...]

]]> By: Toolmonger » Blog Archive » Toolmonger’s Top 5: The Week in Tools - all tools, all the time. http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-822 Toolmonger » Blog Archive » Toolmonger’s Top 5: The Week in Tools - all tools, all the time. Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:18:35 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-822 [...] Hands-On: LOX Screws Professional fence and deck builders know that there are some better alternatives to the Phillips head for heavy-duty driving.  LOX is one of the newest, and we tested it by repeatedly driving and removing a single screw — something any experienced carpenter would studiously avoid.  The LOX screws fared exceedingly well compared to Phillips-head, but many readers questioned its high cost — and whether it’s really a necessary improvement over the Robertson type. [...] [...] Hands-On: LOX Screws Professional fence and deck builders know that there are some better alternatives to the Phillips head for heavy-duty driving.  LOX is one of the newest, and we tested it by repeatedly driving and removing a single screw — something any experienced carpenter would studiously avoid.  The LOX screws fared exceedingly well compared to Phillips-head, but many readers questioned its high cost — and whether it’s really a necessary improvement over the Robertson type. [...]

]]> By: Michael http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-815 Michael Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:48:14 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-815 I use both Phillips and Robertsons daily. Both work, but the Robertson's is superior. The Square drive does cam out during hard use (esp. with harder woods). As someone who is often paid to fix other people's mistakes, I always cringes when I find an old Phillips to remove. Old sqaure drives can be sticky too. I'd welcome an industry wide switch to LOX simply because you never know when you need to remove a screw, and anything that makes that easier is something to consider. Building decks with hard woods like Ipe and Teak would also be an ideal situation for the LOX. Both of those woods can casue cam out quite easily, even with a square drive screw. You could pre-drill, but with 1000 screws that could get tiresome. Some of the same "cons" against the LOX are the same I heard about the Robertson drive (and probanly the same things some said about the Phillips when it was developed to supplant the straight slot). The market will determine acceptance. I expect to see the LOX around for awhile. I use both Phillips and Robertsons daily. Both work, but the Robertson’s is superior. The Square drive does cam out during hard use (esp. with harder woods). As someone who is often paid to fix other people’s mistakes, I always cringes when I find an old Phillips to remove. Old sqaure drives can be sticky too. I’d welcome an industry wide switch to LOX simply because you never know when you need to remove a screw, and anything that makes that easier is something to consider.
Building decks with hard woods like Ipe and Teak would also be an ideal situation for the LOX. Both of those woods can casue cam out quite easily, even with a square drive screw. You could pre-drill, but with 1000 screws that could get tiresome.
Some of the same “cons” against the LOX are the same I heard about the Robertson drive (and probanly the same things some said about the Phillips when it was developed to supplant the straight slot).
The market will determine acceptance. I expect to see the LOX around for awhile.

]]> By: DeadlyDad http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-806 DeadlyDad Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:51:23 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-806 Philips screws were specifically designed for use with power tools, so that, instead of accidentally driving right into whatever you were screwing, they would 'cam out' when the head came in contact with the material. Robertsons, on the other hand, were designed to /never/ 'cam out' or slip. Except for drywall, I can't think of any contractors I know who use Philips screws when Robertsons are available. It is simply better technology. Philips screws were specifically designed for use with power tools, so that, instead of accidentally driving right into whatever you were screwing, they would ‘cam out’ when the head came in contact with the material. Robertsons, on the other hand, were designed to /never/ ‘cam out’ or slip. Except for drywall, I can’t think of any contractors I know who use Philips screws when Robertsons are available. It is simply better technology.

]]> By: Toolaremia http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-805 Toolaremia Fri, 01 Sep 2006 04:13:51 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-805 Trey, the problem with using the cam-out "feature" of the Philips is that it destroys the driver bit. That's why they sell "chaw-cups" with 100 bits in it at the hardware store; you go through several a day if you install drywall for a living. With the Robertson and a clutch, your bit lasts years. And you never slip out of the screw and clobber the drywall. Trey, the problem with using the cam-out “feature” of the Philips is that it destroys the driver bit. That’s why they sell “chaw-cups” with 100 bits in it at the hardware store; you go through several a day if you install drywall for a living. With the Robertson and a clutch, your bit lasts years. And you never slip out of the screw and clobber the drywall.

]]> By: Rob http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-804 Rob Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:59:52 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-804 Trey makes a good point. There is a drywall screw tool called a "Dimpler" that uses the camming action of the Phillips head screw to set it at a certain distance just below the surface of the drywall without overdriving it. Trey makes a good point. There is a drywall screw tool called a “Dimpler” that uses the camming action of the Phillips head screw to set it at a certain distance just below the surface of the drywall without overdriving it.

]]> By: Trey http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-800 Trey Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:37:31 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-800 Actually, the camming out of the Philips head makes it perfect for woodworking and hanging sheetrock. The head cams out before you use so much torque that you strip the threads in the wood. Once I used square drive screws to fasten two sheets of plywood together. Every other screw stripped out due to too much torque from the drill. Yes, you could change the torque setting on your drill but why bother. You don't need to do that with Philips screws in my experience. Actually, the camming out of the Philips head makes it perfect for woodworking and hanging sheetrock. The head cams out before you use so much torque that you strip the threads in the wood. Once I used square drive screws to fasten two sheets of plywood together. Every other screw stripped out due to too much torque from the drill. Yes,
you could change the torque setting on your drill but why bother. You don’t need to do that with Philips screws in my experience.

]]> By: Jake Strait http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-797 Jake Strait Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:30:45 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-797 I've seen the square (Robertson) screws with more regularity in the last few years. If the LOX is to be successful they're going to need to get the price down and get those screws in every store. I would think the manufacturing cost of the square drive would always be less, so this might only be a flash in the pan. I’ve seen the square (Robertson) screws with more regularity in the last few years. If the LOX is to be successful they’re going to need to get the price down and get those screws in every store. I would think the manufacturing cost of the square drive would always be less, so this might only be a flash in the pan.

]]> By: Jason http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-796 Jason Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:56:32 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-796 Reasons why the Robertson screw remain unpopular outside of Canada are suggested in the Wikipedia article. It basically distills to issues of licensing proprietary technologies. Luckily, ninety years later, patents and licensing are no longer issues. Reasons why the Robertson screw remain unpopular outside of Canada are suggested in the Wikipedia article. It basically distills to issues of licensing proprietary technologies. Luckily, ninety years later, patents and licensing are no longer issues.

]]> By: Nick Carter http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-795 Nick Carter Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:48:12 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-795 Just my favorite screw tip: If you have a screw that is camming out/stripped, grab some loose grit from under your bench grinder, mix with oil or spit and apply to the screw head and driver. The grit bites into the recess and driver and allows you to get it out (or in)... They sell bottles of silicon carbide grit and oil for this purpose but spit/grinder grit is free and available. Just my favorite screw tip: If you have a screw that is camming out/stripped, grab some loose grit from under your bench grinder, mix with oil or spit and apply to the screw head and driver. The grit bites into the recess and driver and allows you to get it out (or in)…

They sell bottles of silicon carbide grit and oil for this purpose but spit/grinder grit is free and available.

]]> By: Toolaremia http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-793 Toolaremia Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:23:50 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-793 This really does appear to be nothing more than another attempt to use a patented "improvement" to try and increase revenue in a commodity market. And as the first comment suggests, this is probably not much better than the Robertson (which rocks), the patent on which has already expired. Philips was /designed/ to cam-out. It serves a purpose, of which woodworking should not be one, IMHO. This really does appear to be nothing more than another attempt to use a patented “improvement” to try and increase revenue in a commodity market.

And as the first comment suggests, this is probably not much better than the Robertson (which rocks), the patent on which has already expired.

Philips was /designed/ to cam-out. It serves a purpose, of which woodworking should not be one, IMHO.

]]> By: james b http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-791 james b Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:11:47 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-791 I know torx get used quite a bit in automated assembly machinery because they can be vacuum sucked into a driver then have a rotating bit pressed into the fastener without it tearing up the bit or fastener. Phillips do the same thing in reverse when you use one of those drywall depth setter attachements. I wonder how these do when you put a moving bit onto a halfway sunk screw, or if they can be used with a drywall screw depth setter. I know torx get used quite a bit in automated assembly machinery because they can be vacuum sucked into a driver then have a rotating bit pressed into the fastener without it tearing up the bit or fastener. Phillips do the same thing in reverse when you use one of those drywall depth setter attachements. I wonder how these do when you put a moving bit onto a halfway sunk screw, or if they can be used with a drywall screw depth setter.

]]> By: Rob http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-790 Rob Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:10:16 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-790 Do we really need a new screwhead? Torx, square drive, hex drive. Where does it end? It's true that Phillips screws don't take to multiple uses but for for wood screws, the wood doesn't really take it that well either. For the most part, I consider woodscrews mostly permanent, driven once maybe twice. Things that need to be repeatedly disassembled I would use an insert and a machine screw. I'm still waiting for the "Arthur head" screw to take hold. Do we really need a new screwhead? Torx, square drive, hex drive. Where does it end?

It’s true that Phillips screws don’t take to multiple uses but for for wood screws, the wood doesn’t really take it that well either. For the most part, I consider woodscrews mostly permanent, driven once maybe twice. Things that need to be repeatedly disassembled I would use an insert and a machine screw.

I’m still waiting for the “Arthur head” screw to take hold.

]]> By: Quentin Liedtke http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-788 Quentin Liedtke Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:38:25 +0000 http://toolmonger.com/2006/08/31/hands-on-lox-screws/#comment-788 It still surprises me that the Robertson screw is not popular in any other country than Canada. For those of you that do not know about the Robertson screw, see this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screw The advantages of the Robertson Screw are: 1. Its driver bit sizes are standardized so you know that the bit that you have will fit the screw you have without having to "lean into it" 2. A Robertson screw will stay on the end of the driver bit, enabling you to drive a screw without having to hold the driver with one hand and the screw with the other. 3. The design resists "cam-out" like the LOX screw. I have not done any formal tests but I would suggest that it's probably 5X's better than a Philips' screw (but not as good as a LOX screw). 4. It's Cheaper than a LOX screw and bits are more readily available (in Canada at least) Quentin. It still surprises me that the Robertson screw is not popular in any other country than Canada. For those of you that do not know about the Robertson screw, see this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screw

The advantages of the Robertson Screw are:

1. Its driver bit sizes are standardized so you know that the bit that you have will fit the screw you have without having to “lean into it”

2. A Robertson screw will stay on the end of the driver bit, enabling you to drive a screw without having to hold the driver with one hand and the screw with the other.

3. The design resists “cam-out” like the LOX screw. I have not done any formal tests but I would suggest that it’s probably 5X’s better than a Philips’ screw (but not as good as a LOX screw).

4. It’s Cheaper than a LOX screw and bits are more readily available (in Canada at least)

Quentin.

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